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"Kiu venkis la glacihokean matĉon inter Kanado kaj Rusio?"

Translation:Who won the ice hockey match between Canada and Russia?

June 30, 2015

32 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ichteltelch

Why is it "matĉo", not "maĉo" or "matŝo"? The t-sound seems to be duplicated. Would there even be an audible difference?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Because "maĉo" is already "an act of chewing".

But "matĉo" is an odd word; it doesn't really fit very well into Esperanto's sound system. It seems to have been borrowed by spelling from English "match". "maĉo" would be better if that root hadn't already been "taken".

Theoretically, there is a distinction between "matĉo", "maĉo", and "matŝo", but in practice I think they will sound very similar. (Except maybe to a Pole, who has practice distinguishing between "czy" and "trzy", i.e. roughly "ĉi" and "tŝi"....)

"Budĝeto" is another such awful word. Fortunately, in the 8th official addition to the Esperanto dictionary, the alternative "buĝeto" was added. ("Budĝeto" itself is from the 3rd official addition.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/consultjohan

According to Glosbe and ESPDIC maĉi is chewing, and both maĉo and matŝo is match. Confusing.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

Treat it as multiple syllables. Mat-ĉo and bud-ĝet-o. Same when there are two vowels (or similar). Ku-ir-e-jo.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SeptimusBones

Your syllables seems weird to me. Bud-ĝe-to and kui-re-jo would feel more natural for me. But that's probably just because of my native language. I have no idea how Esperanto does them officially.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Officially you separate affixes and there are some other specifics, which I don't know. However, when you actually pronounce them, naturally you split some affixes. For instance, I would say /pɔˈmu.jɔ/ (po-mu-jo) instead of /pɔmˈui̯.ɔ/ (pom-uj-o), the latter being the official hyphenation. Similarly, it should technically be /budˈd͡ʒɛt.ɔ/ (bud-ĝet-o) instead of the more easily pronounced /budˈd͡ʒɛ.tɔ/ (bud-ĝe-to).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

I agree that Joffysloffy is making it more difficult than it needs to be. The correct syllabication for words generally has one vowel and one consonant per syllable whenever possible. There will, of course be exceptions, for instance in words with more consonants than vowels, or vice versa or when the radical is polysyllabic, and grammar markers are where those very often land.

So Kuirejo = ku-ir-ej-o (the radical kuir- is polysyllabic)
Budĝeto = bud-ĝet-o (an exception to the general rule due to the larger number of consonants involved. Also the radical is polysyllabic)
Pomujo = pom-uj-o (Pom- is the radical, but in practice I do hear po-mo ) and…
Matĉ-o (Again because the radical is monosyllabic) but… Maĉ-ad-o

I hope that this helps.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Oh, I didn't realize I made it so complicated. I was merely trying to point out that the realization of a word often differs from the official hyphenation, because it is easier and more natural to pronounce.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SeptimusBones

@Joffysloffy differing syllables for writing and pronunciation? this is going to give me a headache...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

An act of chewing is likely going to be "maĉado."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

According to PIV, both work:

maĉ(ad)o. Ago de tiu, kiu maĉas.”


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

Akceptanta, sed mi mem preferas uzi maĉado-n simple por eviti fuŝaĵojn.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Mi samopinias; maĉado estas senambigua kaj ĝi superfluigas maĉo-n. Aliflanke, Esperanto funkcias laŭ la principo, ke oni ne uzu afiksojn, se ili ne necesas: ekz. kreaĵo anstataŭ kreitaĵo. Kaj laŭ tio, maĉo estus preferenda.
Krome, ĉar ankaŭ maĉo taŭgas laŭ PIV, ĝi tamen eble estas uzita.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

Matĉo (kaj maĉo) is entirely derived from the English "match". I've been searching for another modern word which is similar and cannot find one, yet.

However, don't forget the circumflex or you will have maco which is a type of unleavened flatbread.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Smalde

I would read one as matcho and the other one as macho (spanish sound system). They sound different to me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

The difference is very minimal. If you pronounce them carefully, the difference is where you ‘pause’ between syllables:

• maĉo: [ˈmɑ.t͡ʃɔ];
• matĉo: [ˈmɑt.t͡ʃɔ];
• matŝo: [ˈmɑt.ʃɔ].


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Note that you don't even need a syllable break to distinguish them!

For example, in Polish there is a minimal pair between "czy" (Esperanto "ĉu") and "trzy" (Esperanto "tri"): [t͡ʃɨ] vs. [tʃɨ] -- the only difference is whether it's an affricate (/ĉ/) or a sequence of stop+affricate (/tŝ/)!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Ooh, very interesting! That is such a subtle difference though. It's kind of tricky to do without overenunciating haha. (I don't speak Polish or anything though, so the stop+affricate doesn't occur in one syllable in any language I speak as far as I know.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

I've only ever heard of such a distinction for Polish!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Aah, that explains my not heaving heard of it!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SeptimusBones

This is how I understood these too. To me, the differences are clear as day! Though, to be fair, they're easy to mix if you're speaking too fast. :P


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Yes, indeed, in casual speak matĉo merges with maĉo. Fortunately it's hard to think of a situation where the context does not disambiguate this :p.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

How about a chewing match? :D


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

Especially since maĉ- is typically a verb, and matĉ- is usually a noun.

Interesting though, one of my old dictionaries has maĉo for the word we are learning as matĉo. Apparently someone somewhere decided that distinguishing these two in writing was more important.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Yeah, indeed. And it's hard to come up with a sentence where both an act of chewing and a sporting match would fit :p… (At least, one that's not totally trivial, e.g., “I like …”.)

I remember seeing maĉo for matĉo as well.

I just realized, that the /a/ sound in Esperanto usually is [a] at the end of a syllable and [ɑ] otherwise. So even if you don't distinguish ⟨ĉ⟩ and ⟨tĉ⟩, you can still distinguish the /a/ by pronouncing maĉo as [ˈma.t͡ʃɔ] and matĉo as [ˈmɑ.t͡ʃɔ].


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Haha, that is clever. That also undermines my /a/ sound argument xd, as maĉmatĉo would be pronounced with two short as (i.e. [ɑ]).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/seancenarox

Why use "venki" rather than "gajni"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

Bona demando estas.

Venki signifas: conquer, vanquish; beat, defeat, overthrow, prevail against, triumph over; gain the victory.

Gajni signifas: Gain, make, obtain; acquire, earn, secure, win.

Do, kio vi pensas?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/seancenarox

I guess it works. It kinda seems like somebody's against the hockey game itself, but I think that I understand. Thanks!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Renardo_11

I share your concerns and would normally either say “gajnis la … matĉon” or “venkis en la … matĉo.” But then an accusative can often replace a preposition if no doubts are possible, so the sentence seems acceptable.

Edit: I have changed my mind about this. According to NPIV, the direct object of “venki” is always the adversary, not the contest or the prize (which could be used with “gajni”). So the sentece should probably be

  • Kiu venkis en la glacihokea matco inter Kanado kaj Rusio?
  • Kiu gajnis la glacihokean matĉon inter Kanado kaj Rusio?

Roughly, I would translate

  • venki = to defeat, to outplay, to vanquish, to overwhelm.
  • gajni = to win

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JenMLee

Mi havis la saman demendon, kaj mi pensas, ke "gajnis" estus pli bone en ĉi tiu frazo.

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