Immersion: commenting when first to translate
sometime, in Immersion, when I'm the first to translate a sentence, I want to comment my translation's choice. For example to explain why, when translating to English a Wikipedia page, I choose the English Wikipedia's convention and so, IMO, why other users shouldn't change it.
My problem is that commenting is only available when editing, not when first translator of a sentence.
Would it be possible to allow first translator to comment his/her own translation?
Of course there is a work-around: to make a first translation (with a little error/typo on purpose) then edit it and then you can add a comment. (NB: the error/typo is mandatory because Duo will refuse to validate your edition if you didn't make any change to the translation...).
Well it works but first it would be better not having to "cheat" the system and most of all it doesn't work entirely.
Indeed the comment doesn't appear.
Well in fact it's more subtle:
- It doesn't appear in "Original" view (view that I prefer because you can add comment to your edition. So it could push people to comment their edition...:)) as you can see here ,
- It appears in "Translation" view (view that I don't like because you can't add comment to your edition. So it can't help pushing people to comment their edition...:)) as you can see here .
Would it be possible to make this "first comment" visible in "Original" view?
I agree that the original translator should be able to leave a comment. We'll add that soon.
That was quick, it seems to be working already, you can now comment on the first translation.
I'd like this too. Sometimes when I write a translation I just know somebody is going to change it because they can't see my reason for the way I wrote it. I'd know I need to explain it later because I can often spot something that could be misunderstood, or because I looked around on the source website for the context, but it would be great to be able to justify the first translation.
My suggestion would be a "Talk" page like the one Wikipedia has for each article.
I wasn't suggesting that Duo should have "Talk" pages because Wikipedia does. Of course there are differences. It just seems to me that there is a need for a place to make general comments about an article being translated as well as the specific comments at particular places in the text. A few examples would be: "This article is already translated at such and such a site." "I was trying for such and such an effect in my translation." "This article seems commercial/sexist/copyrighted/inaccurate, etc." "I think the point of this article is being missed, which is such and such."
Of course, it is possible to say such things now, but a person looking at a particular passage might miss them.
And of course nothing would force people to read the Talk page, but that's not a reason for not having one. At least people would see that it is there.
I agree there should be a discussion for the general article as well as individual sentences.
Well we can disagree. ;) At least, as said anomalocaris, we agree that it would be great that it evolves.
About your good examples, my opinion:
- "This article is already translated at such and such a site.". Indeed, a problem. I already suggested (somewhere, do find it again -- the discussion section need some "My (created by myself) discussion" tabs :)) to Duolingo to add to the report possibilities this one. Then it could be a responsability of Moderators, or Only Duo Team.
- "I was trying for such and such an effect in my translation.": Effect are peculiar to sentence, or on two following sentence, in this case a comment on the (two) sentence(s), will do it, IMO.
- "This article seems commercial/sexist/copyrighted/inaccurate, etc.": the report is already here. Same as the end of first example.
- "I think the point of this article is being missed, which is such and such.": if it's about the entire article, indeed we can't properly comment it. But as far as now I have only encounter mis-interpretation on on (2, 3, 4 at max max) following sentences and in this case I correct and copy/past (part of) my comments to each.
Well I'm only saying [Cf. my comment that begin with "Oh I was only saying" :)].
I am just waiting for Duo to implement this -it seems like a very logical choice to me. jrikhal's points are the most pressing -these things frustrate me too- but I really don't see why there can't be a discussion page opened for each sentence, just as there are for the sentences in the lessons. When the article is "sent back" (if it is), the discussion can disappear, or stay there on Duolingo -whatever works, who cares? There's a huge amount of redundant and often trivial discussions just sitting there on Duo. If voting on the comments is also allowed, the most up-voted comment could be visible under the latest translation. Sometimes I have made a comment about something that is likely to be misunderstood (like the situations kaiengle describes), and then someone changes the translation without reading my comment, and then it gets lost under all the other edits.
To complete my other answer: after passing some times on sentence discussion page (and more generally on discussions), I have the impression that most of the people come to it only when they lose a heart (and after to the same discussion page if they receive an email alert about an answer).
But in immersion there is no such a thing as loosing hearts. So I fear that some (unfortunately not so many) people would edit translation without caring to check the Talk page... You'll say: "same with comments" I agree completely but that's my point, a discussion page will not do any better and being apart of the article is less practical than comments, IMO.
PS: maybe am I to pessimistic... ;)
Yes, I see your point. It all depends on how diligent people are in reading comments and other translations before they edit (which I think they should ALWAYS do). That's why I thought that if the most upvoted comment is visible when you go to edit a translation, at least that may make some people think before they edit (and hopefully read further).
Hi Thoughtdiva, it seems you're formatting failed. Here some hints:
- to do a new paragraph : double "return".
- to go to the next line (but not a new paragraph) : double space at the end of the line "A" then return then write line B. For example (thing between bracket are commentaries):
- to do an embedded list: put a "-" at the beginning of a new paragraph (so as above or first line of the comment you're writing) then (simple) return at the end of each item and "-" at the beginning of the following item of the list.
Ok thanks- I guess I was a bit lazy with that! But just so you know, I wasn't trying to use dashes for formatting -it's an acceptable punctuation mark for informal writing :)
Oh, I see. I didn't get it because in French we put space before and after (and should put double or triple dash -- I never remember the rule).
Well, I should have put a space before and after all the dashes -laziness again...
Not sure. On Wikipedia, the article is supposed to be here forever so a discussion page is needed to keep track along the time if needed and to discuss (very) problématique change of/subject about the article.
Here, once finished (or before if the uploader decide), the translation is put back (well is more for Wikipedia's article, and for them for real problem there will be the Wikipedia's Talk page ;)). And then the discussion will not be needed.
So a discussion page seems to much to me when the comment, IMO, are enough. But they're enough if users read them and make comments... and the discussion page would solve this problem, it would be worst since it wouldn't be in the same page as the article.
The Talk page could be deleted once the article has been marked as complete for a certain length of time, if storage is really that big an issue...although it might be worth keeping for future reference, if there are good grammar discussions or something. Your suggestion would be a great improvement over what they have now, but I feel like it doesn't go far enough.
Oh I was only saying that since each article discussion page will not be useful so long, I don't think it worth it to do it. But it's just my opinion. Don't think storage is an issue for Duo.
Overall, my reply was saying that I thing that dedicated discussion pages (given the poor use done by users with comment - it'll not be better with dedicated discussion pages) will not, IMO, give something we can't have with comment. Comments that have the advantage to be on the same page as the article, integrated to it.
I see your point...on the other hand, comments aren't threaded, and you can't make one without editing the translation. I don't know what the best solution is, but clearly something needs to change. :P
I agree that translators as well as editors need a venue to exchange ideas. Yes, there is a lot of frustration out there over having correct translations repeatedly changed to versions which are not suited to the "tone" of the article or are poor English. There is one article in the German Immersion in which one short sentence has been changed over 50 times. I don't know how the system functions but I would hope a moderator should step in at some point.