"Even when it is open."

Translation:Fiú amháin agus é oscailte.

July 9, 2015

28 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/jackmchugh12

struggling to understand this sentence at all.

July 9, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/Knocksedan

Fiú amháin is an idiom - it means "even" in Irish, but you can't translate the individual elements to get that meaning. Fiú amháin agus é oscailte is just the construction that is used in Irish when you want to say "Even when it's open".

(I should add that "even" in that context is an idiom in English too - the answer to the question "why do we use a word that means flat or smooth in that context?" is just "Because!" :-) )

July 9, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/RozieToez

The use of "even" in that context in English isn't idiomatic. Even just has several standard denotations.

September 15, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/Stiofn3

or not odd...

April 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Eard_Stapa

Agreed. The hints for this sentence just made me even more confused. Which is sort if a trend in this course....

November 14, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/scilling

It’s more a clause than a sentence; completing the sentence could clarify the clause, e.g. “Even when it is open, the window doesn’t allow a breeze to enter the room”.

July 9, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/Stiofn3

As far as "agus" goes, I had to think about how Irish speak in English. They often will say things like "and me sitting there". Ar a laghad, tá seo mo smaoineamh!

April 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/vic3685

So my guess was: "fiú nuar a tá sé ar oscailt". Is it very wrong?

August 25, 2015

[deactivated user]

    nuair a bhíonn instead of nuair atá but it is still marked wrong.

    December 4, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/RozieToez

    Can someone please explain what's going on in this clause? What tense or form is oscailte in? What is agus doing there? What does this literally mean?

    September 15, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/Knocksedan

    Oscailte is an adjective
    Oscailt is a noun
    Oscail is a verb

    Agus is used for "when" in some constructions. The NEID gives examples where the conjunction "when" is used to indicate during the time that or given the fact that.

    I'm not sure why you think that it doesn't literally mean "Even when it is open". Fiú amháin means "Even", agus means "when" in this context, é means "it", and oscailte means "open".

    September 16, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/RozieToez

    Thank you for your answer. It clears a lot up. But I should point out I didn't say it doesn't literally mean any one thing or another. I asked what it literally meant.

    However, beyond that, that still leaves questions. In the English, "it" is the subject of the clause, and "is" is the verb. And then "open" is an predicative adjective, as there's no way in English to use most (maybe all?) attributive adjectives with a pronoun. You can have an "open door" but not an "open it". Is that different in Irish? If not, then there are problems. The word é means "it" but it's not nominative, right? It's the object form. What is é the object of, then? That would require a verb. Is there a implied? And then, what's the subject? Or is the é there just to anchor the oscailte in a way we never need to do in English, so that the clause is supposed to mean "even when open" leaving any question as to the subject for the main clause, and thus removing the need for the verb in the dependent clause altogether?

    September 16, 2015

    [deactivated user]

      All very worthy questions! I am not a linguist but here is an attempt at giving a literal explanation. Note that agus can also mean "in addition to". Taking the phrase to be fiú amháin agus é ar oscailt which I think is more natural, we have:

      One worth in addition to it being open meaning that the fact of it being open doesn't enhance its worth or its ability to bring about some desired effect.

      Taking a scenario like scilling's above, you might say to me: Nár oscail tú an fhuinneog? To which I might reply: Ní bhogann an t-aer fiú amháin agus é ar oscailt. Or maybe transposed: Fiú amháin agus é ar oscailt ní bhogann an t-aer.

      See fiú, amháin, agus

      December 4, 2015

      https://www.duolingo.com/MacBeatha

      There's an implied in clauses of this type, ...agus é (a bheith) oscailte. It's very rare to see the a bheith explicitly expressed.

      May 17, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/NicLiam

      Where is the verb in this sentence?

      November 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/SatharnPHL
      Mod
      • 1138

      There are two ways to approach that question. You can take the verb out of the English caluse - using scilling's example above “Even when it is open, the window doesn’t allow a breeze to enter the room”, you could also write this as “Even with it open, the window doesn’t allow a breeze to enter the room”. There is no verb in “Even with it open".

      Alternatively, you can say that there is an implied in this usage of agus é.

      You can see from the examples above that many of them use the ag + verbal noun present progressive verb forms (agus é ag rith, agus é ag súil), which normally require as well (tá sé ag rith, bhí sé as siúl). The remaining examples don't use ag + verbal noun, but you can still replace agus é with tá sé or bhí sé to create stand-alone statements - agus é fluich, agus é ina pháiste, agus é faoi dhiansaothar, agus é croíbhriste.

      agus + pronoun is a common structure that typically doesn't mean "and" in English (though Hiberno-English is quite comfortable with "and it wet" or "and him heartbroken", adopting the "literal" translation from Irish).

      November 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/joanmvanore

      If you check out Irish literature that uses dialect (Séamus ó Grianna, Padraic Pearse ...) you find characters using phrases that are English renderings of Irish idioms. Somehow, I've found seeing them helpful in remembering the Irish .... just a suggestion for those interested in the literature.

      March 1, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/gandharvadeva

      Where does "agus" come in here? I understand "fiu amhain" but why is "agus" replacing the verb here?

      July 17, 2015

      https://www.duolingo.com/caoilfhionndubh

      'agus' can mean when in some contexts, like this one.

      April 6, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/Daiana-1602

      My thoughts exactly...

      September 13, 2015

      https://www.duolingo.com/Eclectic1234

      Good discussion here. I think it's easiest to just look at this exercise as a chance to practice using "agus é" in place of "when it is."

      May 8, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/SeanMeaneyPL

      I put "Fiú nuair atá sé ar oscailt* which looks fine to me. Is this wrong?

      May 4, 2017

      [deactivated user]

        Fiú agus é ar oscailt is more natural. See item number 4 here for examples of using agus in the same context as here.

        May 4, 2017

        https://www.duolingo.com/Feith9

        It seems to me an idiom something akin to say "They still didn't score and the goal was wide open".

        April 21, 2018

        https://www.duolingo.com/SatharnPHL
        Mod
        • 1138

        That may be an idiom in English, but this isn't an idiomatic usage in Irish - agus has more than one meaning, and particularly when it is followed by a pronoun, is more likely to mean "when", "while" or "as".

        "He was picking blackberries as he walked along the lane" - Bhí sé ag baint sméara dubha agus é ag siúl síos an bóithrín
        "It's lashing rain, and you can't pick blackberries when it's wet" - tá sé ag stealladh báistí, agus ní féidir sméara dúbha a bhaint agus é fluich

        here are a couple of examples of sentences with agus é from the NEID:
        "he was baulked as he ran in" - stopadh é agus é ag rith isteach
        "he admitted it under interrogation" - d'admhaigh sé é agus é á cheistiú
        "she saw him when he was a baby" - chonaic sí é agus é ina pháiste
        "he collapsed breathlessly" - thit sé agus é faoi dhiansaothar
        "he went away broken-hearted" - d'imigh sé agus é croíbhriste
        "he was caught cogging (copying)" - rugadh air agus é ag cóipeáil

        April 21, 2018

        https://www.duolingo.com/Maedbhlynch

        If I didn't have the jumbled sentence to guide i would have probably have answered 'Fiú amhain agus a bhfuil sé oscailte.' Would that be acceptable?

        July 12, 2018

        https://www.duolingo.com/mikeinkerry

        Assuming that 'agus' contains an implied copula,one might expect to see " ... is oscailte é. " So why 'é' before 'oscailte' ?

        March 24, 2019

        https://www.duolingo.com/SatharnPHL
        Mod
        • 1138

        You have just demonstrated that agus doesn't have an implied copula.

        You don't use the copula when you are using an adjective like oscailte to describe a noun - is oscailte é doesn't make any sense, "it is open" is tá sé oscailte.

        March 24, 2019
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