https://www.duolingo.com/MarcAdler

American-sounding R?

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I've started watching Kara Para Aşk, and I can't help thinking that in whatever dialect/accent the cop's girlfriend has, she uses what sounds like an American R ("retroflex approximant," also heard in Dutch and some varieties of Brazilian Portuguese, I think), especially in [V]r[C] situations (closed vowels where a vowel is followed by an 'r' and then by another consonant). For example, I know that "nerede" is pronounced closer to "nerde" in normal (non-careful) speech, and it sounds like she's saying "nerde" with an American 'r.'

Am I just hearing things?

7/16/2015, 5:54:05 PM

15 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
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You are hearing very correct things :) Although, it does get rolled in some places in the East the 'American' r is the standard and most common pronunciation (especially in the environment where you described it).

7/17/2015, 3:24:51 AM

https://www.duolingo.com/MarcAdler
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Whoa. Thanks.

7/17/2015, 3:18:57 PM

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
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Technically the one in the US isn't even a consonant, but is rather a rhotacized vowel ɝ or ɚ, while Turkish uses the consonant ɹ. But that is all just a matter of close phonetics :D And "r" is only "ɹ" when "XVrC". "XrV"=ɾ and "Vr#"=ɾ̝̊"

7/19/2015, 6:47:14 PM

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
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The underlying phoneme is ɾ :)

7/19/2015, 6:47:38 PM

https://www.duolingo.com/orde90
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Actually young generation women tend to pronounce it like American R. The Turkish R is very similar to the American one as Alex said but we normally use our tongue much closer to our teeth when creating this sound compared to Americans.

7/19/2015, 2:18:45 AM

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
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Check out what I wrote above. It is a little more specific (because you are right...they aren't the exact same sound except in some places [in Istanbul and Ankara I have tended to hear it like the American one...not in the Aegean region or the Western Black Sea region at all which is pretty interesting!]). It is a phenomenon mostly reserved to younger people too, like you said.

7/19/2015, 6:49:18 PM

https://www.duolingo.com/orde90
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Wow, thanks for such a detailed explanation!

7/19/2015, 11:23:09 PM

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
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If you understood the linguistics things above, I would have a lot of respect! :D

7/20/2015, 12:15:53 AM

https://www.duolingo.com/orde90
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I have looked up the IPA symbols and the term rhotacized in Wikipedia. I guess V and C stand for vowel and consonant. X might stand for any sound but I have no idea about #.

ɾ̝̊ should be the voiceless version but I couldn't figure out the difference. How could it be voiceless? Is it voiceless when it's in the end of the word? Then does # mean blankness..? :D

But also we don't necessarily roll the R when it's at the end. Sometimes we may pronounce it very softly that it's almost a vowel. That's why we pronounce it like ş. Many people here confused bir with /biş/. Maybe you mean this by voiceless.

7/20/2015, 8:56:16 AM

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
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It is what you said in the last paragraph. Basically, /ɾ/ is treated like a stop /b,d,g/ in some cases, but isn't anything like them phonetically. It is very mysterious indeed. Most Turks devoice the r without even knowing or hearing it. # means "word boundary"

7/20/2015, 11:39:49 AM

https://www.duolingo.com/MarcAdler
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So is this a gender-differentiated pronunciation? Fascinating.

7/20/2015, 12:55:22 PM

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
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Mostly just geographic if that. There is in some places a more random distribution and younger generations tend to be a little more rhotic than their older counterparts.

7/20/2015, 5:40:47 PM

https://www.duolingo.com/MarcAdler
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Oh, okay. I asked because in Kara Para Aşk it seemed like the female characters used it more, and then deorme90 mentioned it.

By the way, do you know of any academic papers on this? I'd love to read one.

7/20/2015, 6:13:16 PM

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
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Something very very very important to remember is that if you have a vowel before 'r', that vowel is still fully pronounced. Americans in particular struggle with this, the classic example being the pronunciation of "Bursa." If not pronounced correctly, a lot of people end up saying "börsa" or "borsa." (the latter means stock exchange, which is nothing like Bursa at all :D)

7/20/2015, 5:43:42 PM

https://www.duolingo.com/RedLingon

You are completely right. That pattern has retroflex aproximant most of the time. I live in İzmir and many people here use it.

7/24/2015, 2:56:42 PM

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