I have read and enjoyed all your comments with pleasure. I've learned a lot with them, even if I haven't understood some. As a non-native-English-speaker, I still have a long way in front of me. Hope excuse my mistakes!
I understand that «go out and play» is an english structure you use quite often. Like: Last year I went and saw the London Tower.
As for the French sentence, I can't agree with «Sortez et jouez». it is understable, yes, but it is too litteral a translation to be perfect. Let's say that something has happened to get «lost in translation». «Sortez et jouez» doesn't sound so French.
I think «Allez jouer dehors» would be a better choice
I don't think so - you can "go and play" over there, but you "go out and play" outside (the house).
I think that go implies leaving, but doesn't specify where at all - just exiting the current space. It could be going into another room OR outside.
It was already explained. It is the imperative which orders someone to do something. "You go out and play" is stating what the person is doing.
edit: Visit jgbachand's comment below, if you are talking about the imperative in that sense, then it should be correct.
You go out and play - could be imperative if you wanted to emphasize the "you" - my mother would say exactly this when she wanted to get one of her children out of her way for a while, pointing at one of us and saying "You go out and play" to another, "you go and study." There was no question that it was imperative. Of course, I have no way of knowing how this emphasis would be expressed in French. I'm just saying....
No, that would be "You, go out and play". As in, "Vous, sortez et jouez." or "Toi, sorte et joue."
You make a very good point there. I'll edit my comment and tell others to make sure to come to your comment.
"It was already explained."
It hasn't where I'm at. I'm only on present tense. The only reason I know about the imperative tense is that I have 5 years of Spanish classes to work from.
It seems a little weird to throw an imperative sentence into the present tense section like that.
I'm not sure why that happens, but I got this sentence in the imperative section, and people kept on asking the same question over and over again, so I said it was already explained.
I didn't realize you meant it had been explained in the comments. I came here specifically to see if anyone else had said anything about it showing up way before the imperative was introduced and I didn't see anything outright mentioning it (though I'm guessing that's why some people are confused).
It came up to me in a Present 3 lesson, more than 30 skills before Imperative.
I get why "you go out and play" is not imperative, but why can't "sortez et jouez" mean "you go out and play"? Duo didn't accept it.
That's just the way the tenses are formed in french. If you say "sortez" you mean "go out" or "leave", but if you say "vous sortez" you are saying either "you are going out" or "you go out". And if you reverse them (sortez-vous?) then you are asking a question "Are you going out?".
However, in English "you go out and play" is equivalent to "go out and play." This is not French grammar we're talking here, but English. The "target" language trumps in translation..
So, are you suggesting that the target language differs from the target language To Be Learned? "You" go out and play is just not the task sentence here is it? Anyway the two that you suggest are equivalent surely can not be interchangeable in all contexts and if they can't, then they're not equivalent are they?
The "task sentence" here is a bot's attempt to speak a human language. The target language is in this case English, into which we are supposed to translate those strange sounds. Thoughtdiva's question is apt. The two versions she proposes are indeed equivalent. Here, by design, there is no context from which to determine intent, and that is a weakness in von Ahn's methodology. DL should do better.
That is not correct. In English that imperative would be "You, go out and play." and in French that would be "Vous, sortez et jouez."
Technically, "sortir" could be translated as "to exit". However, no English speaker (except someone who was trying to make a joke) would ever say "Exit and play". Welcome to the imperative form of french verbs!
I think people are overreading this statement. It seems to be akin to the scolding (at least for Gen X-Y-? Folk) to "Go out and play," as opposed to the video games we would rather be playing. Probably just a guy thing.
Nobody ever tells their kids that anymore, I assume, since parents these days are petrified of all the various things that could happen to their children when left unsupervised. It's one of the disadvantages of our Information Age.
.....I never see you anymore, come out the door, it's like you've gone away.... We used to be best buddies, and now we're not, I wish you would tell me why!!!!!! Do you want to build a snowman?!?!?!
Can we not start teaching the imperative tense when I can't keep the present straight? Thanks?
Can someone explain me please why Duo does not accept "leave and play" as a translation?
But a previous question I answered used "sort" and it accepted "leave" as a translation.
OK, Mendelsohnjason. Leave can be both a noun and an adjective and there are many translations for it. What was the previous question you speak of and how was "Sortie/Sortez" Spelt?
While the site does have inconsistency issues with where "natural" speech is recognized as a valid translation, and where it is not, the natural translation here is definitely "go out", not "exit". This is a motherly command, probably because you're in her way. ;)
My Mummy once told me to go and sweep the motorway with a mascara brush. Then I had kids at home during the holidays and I understood.
The phrase I heard was--and still is-- "Sauter et jouer": "jumping and playing." Why in the name of all that's unholy does DL present us with such ridiculous choices? C'est un'abomination!
Yes,mate. The voicebot needs to wash her platinum knickers. The phrase Jump and play=Sauter et jouer should begin with: "Sowtay" sound, whereas Go out and play=Sortez et jouer should begin with "Sorrrrrtay" with a definite grandad gargling sound on those "R"s. Between the two, which seems to be the most likely sentence (allowing for Duo's weird sentences of course)? Remember that in the tree where you click on to the particular lesson you are going to try, the new words you'll be introduced to are listed and Sauter is not there while Sortez is. Just a clue.
Your response is sane, and I appreciate it. But I did this as a "repeat" to "strengthen words that [I] know." It is usual to encounter words that are not in the original list. It is also unfortunately usual to encounter pronunciations that are not normal French, at least not the French I have heard in France. I expect better from the CEO who won a MacArthur Grant. Just saying. Quel domage!
Ha! Love it! C'est de la politique. I agree with you. There are, I'm sure you'll agree, so many benefits from this free course that we may tolerate its shortcomings and use the "Post a Problem" thread often. It seems that this French course has more problems, especially with the audio, than any other of Duo's language courses which is a shame. I enjoy debate with you rljones, with respect. I do take the points you raise and I'm well aware of the portfolio of the MacArthur Grant. Cordial. JJ.
D'accord! I have enjoyed the guessing games--somewhat like solving crossword puzzles--and I think I have even learned things I could not have otherwise (especially after checking other sources for confirmation). Crowd-sourcing language is an interesting idea, and it seems to work in many cases--somewhat like learning one's native language in infancy. I hope our interaction will not always result in debate. An additional benefit of DL is contact with other intelligent folk who have common interests. Amicalement. RLJ.
Although, Techno, it's hilarious when they're out and walk into a lamppost because they're too busy texting! Then look at it as if to say "Who the Hell put That there?"
why is it Sort-ez et Jou-ez and not Sorter et jouer? Are we assuming the presence of "vous" even though it is not mentioned. This seems very un french
The imperative form is as shown.
I would point out, though, that in some cases, the infinitive is used instead of the imperative - in recipes, for example, you don't say, "Ajoutez un oeuf", but "ajouter un oeuf". It's the same with instructions on a package. I imagine it's considered a little more refined, or less bossy, or something. Not sure where else this might apply.
I don't know the proper grammatical terms, but this is how you express an order to someone. You usually use the 'tu' form of the verb for a straight-out order, so you would say 'Va!' for 'just GO!', and the 'nous' form for something that is a bit more polite, a bit more of a suggestion. 'Allez!' - let's go! 'Mangez' - let's eat! I hope I've got that right - I'm remembering this from my school French, which was a looong time ago.
just fyi: It's called the imperative.
Also there's some errors in your explanation:
- I don't know how common it is in speech, but the vous form of an imperative is used a lot. Also if you're ordering a group of people you'd have to use it (e.g. Allez! - Go away! or at a sports match: Allez la France! - Go france!).
- the examples you gave of "allez" or "mangez" are both the vous form. So you are saying "go away!" and "eat!" to someone else. A nous form would be "mangeons!" which would mean "lets eat!".
- often, it seems, that if you're using nous you will add y in the phrase. E.g. "Allons-y" which means "lets go!" but literally would mean "lets go there!". I don't know why. I just hear it a lot.
For some further reading: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/imperative.htm
Keep in mind though the vous form can be just as much as a command as the tu form. A mother would say to her children : allez aux chambres !, and that would definitely not be a suggestion. Because she is speaking to more than one child, she would not use the tu form : va aux chambres... It doesnt makes sense.
It could very well be "sorter et jouer" (as a response to "Qu'est qu'on va faire?), since duolingo occasionally throws fragments at us.
I totally understand the sentence, but my answer is "out and play". lol. I mean everyone, sometimes, you just got it wrong in Duolingo, but it doesn't mean you are wrong. The sentence has different ways to translate, and it is impossible for Duolingo to have it all. Personally speaking, the key of Duolingo is to teach us French. As long as you understand the word and the sentence, it is fine. On the condition that you learned the word, don't feel depressed if you are not exactly right as Duolingo.
but with "out and play" you accidentally a word didn't you? I mean I'm not a native speaker of the English language but that just sounds incorrect. Giving answers without grammar errors is generally better.
@Jan. No rhyme nor reason. It is just one of the wonderful exceptions all languages do to keep our love alive!
Why is the second verb conjugated? Doesn't the presence of one verb in the sentence mean that the second verb should appear in the infinitive (i.e. it should be "Sortez et jouer", not "Sortez et jouez").
are the words "sortez" and "sortie" related? Or do they just happen to look similar?
I guess my comment will be lost in all these but why not "going out and playing" We've seen the in French, present indefinite and present continuous are the same.
Only depending on context, Prvashisht. In English and most likely in French one just would not say Going Out And Playing without some context. Anyroad we English would say "I'm going out TO play." Even the girls who are born to multi-task because there are blokes about who like watching football when there's the housework, cooking and younger sibling/offspring to look after all at once, would use that structure. "Going out" is not Playing and "Playing" is not Going Out
Right now, all I know is, sometimes They accept words and sometimes not, for the same sentence, just at different times. I want to be able to go to France and actually speak with the French. I don't want or need the confusion I see in the French dolingo. I know more French than any other language I'm taking and it's less forgiving, understandable (the dictionary, the written word, the hover dictionary and the sound system especially.) I love French, I love and appreciate duolingo and I AM FRUSTRATED! I love the comments here, they lightened and brightened My day. Merci !
Yes, Rev, Duo does have its flaws but the way I use it (which may well be the same as yours) is to try the task of a lesson and then wade through these discussion threads from which I learn at leas as much as the lessons themselves. Yes there is silly clutter but it doesn't take too long to recognise it and bypass it. There are some serious grammarians here. Erm; are you actually a reverend? (You are welcome to tell me to mind my own business,) Votre ami JJ.
Yes, I'm doing exactly what You are doing. Sometimes I just take things too seriously. Thank God I decided to join the discussion. It's given Me new hope for continuing with dolingo French. I love the jokes... they keep My English side happy.
Yes I am a real reverend. My whole moniker is Reverend Mother Abbess. I'm the head of a Church called Sacred Ground Healing Ministries. The reason I'm studying French so fervently, it so that I can go to France and make contact with people who actually make essential oils. I want to control the quality of the oils I'm using in Our convents'. Healing products. They are the vehicle, through which We support Ourselves, as well as helping Gods children (around the world) to heal, by natural means. When one heals the body, it gives the soul a clean house, in which to reside and thrive.
Mon ami, Rev Judi
Well Rev Judi, what lovely things you do. I ought to say that I'm not religious at all but have no problems with those of any faith so long as they're not carrying an AK47. Indeed, I have had friends over my near 70 years who were religious and I have accompanied them to Church Service and others to Mass. I have knelt along with everyone but of course I didn't pray because for me there wasn't anyone to pray to but I assure you nobody knew that I was not of their faith.. A friend is someone I am with wherever they are. I really respect what you do. I am no longer a masseur but I'm ITEC qualified and know essential oils well. Well I do massage one person to help her release the squawking parrot from her ear as she recovers from alcohol addiction. I think that you may know of what I relate. I was also a coach operator and ran an eclectic rock/folk/jazz trio. We have an album online and I'll give you a link to listen for free if you wish.. Yes Rev Judi, we do take things too seriously sometimes. You are certainly not alone with that number. My thought is that nothing is too serious otherwise we would not die. So life itself is not that serious (unless that bloke is carrying an AK47 that is!) I researched Sacred ground and it seems that there are more than one going by that name. Two are : 1) A shamanic organisation and 2) Wintercrest. I would like to know more. So as to not clutter Duo's discussion threads with non-language-related communications, you are welcome to mail me at Beflaot@gamail.com and maybe we may talk some more. Votre ami, JJ. (Oh dear! There's a fly bothering me in my little boat's cabin! Why do they come in here when they have the whole Great Wide World to fly around in and explore? I don't swat them by the way. I catch them under a half-pint beer glass and slide a card under it then release them to where they're supposed to be. I have helpful friends: They're called spiders...........I really like spiders. How do they know which part of the windows will be open and to make their web there? How do they know that? JJ. :)
Why not "Leave and play!" ?? As in, a parent telling a child to leave the house and go outside and play.
This sentence should not be in the Present 3 Skill. It hasn't even been taught at that point in the tree.