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  5. "Lui ci ha portati allo zoo."

"Lui ci ha portati allo zoo."

Translation:He has taken us to the zoo.

December 31, 2012

92 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OlzWolz

Shouldn't this be "ci ha portato?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David536982

My very well-educated Italian friend (who was raised in Italy) agreed that "portato" is correct, until I read out the argument for "portati". Let us all take comfort from that!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FullRinse

Yes there are many mistakes with direct pronouns in this section. Please correct this Duolingo!!!!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vfcampi

No this is not a mistake. When a clitic precedes the conjugated form of avere in the passato prossimo, the ending of past participle (in this case, portare) should match in number and gender. Since ci is plural and assumed mixed genders, it is "ci ha portati". For l'ha portata if the uncontracted form is la ha portata, etc.

When essere is the auxilliary verb, the past particle has to match: Sono stato/a, sei stato/a, siamo stati/e, siete stati/e, sono stati/e.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeffrey855877

Monkey wrench time: the "Tips and Notes" in the header to this section, where the portals to each lesson are collected, says that:

"If the verb is conjugated with any ... direct object clitic [other than 3rd person DO clitics or "ne"], it can optionally match its gender and number".

According to these rules, "portati" and "portato" are both correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KevinFranc5

Lol Italian language never short of monkey wrenches...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobFreestone

I do not understand why the ending of portati should match the gender/number of the object, ie ci, rather than the subject, ie Lui,, in which case would it not be portato?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alec_spb

because it literally means "he has us taken", so we've been taken, not he.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

It's just the rule, you match to the direct object pronoun


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/grrl8

-93 seems a bit harsh!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jones_Rick

Do you really expect that Duolingo will do this. I expect mistakes in English but not in the target language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Beethoven.21

I think that the trickiest thing about this exercise (in my case audio transcription), is that it came right after the exercise to translate: Lui ci ha portate allo zoo. I took it for granted that it was the same thing, instead of listening to it slowly. -i and -e endings are so tough to differentiate acoustically. And the correction shows almost no mercy.

I didn't think that this program threw curve balls with the intention of striking us out, but now am not so sure.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EugeniaAT

The order of the exercises changes every time, so you were probably just unlucky this time.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bumsai

Maybe it's just your deafness, Ludwig :P


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/leonardicus

This can also translate to "He brought us to the zoo."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MeiaSala

Tried it first and lost a heart. Reported Aug 25, 2020


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeffrey855877

The "Tips and Notes" in the header to this section, where the portals to each lesson are collected, says that:

"If the verb is conjugated with any ... direct object clitic [other than 3rd person DO clitics or "ne"], it can optionally match its gender and number".

According to these rules, "portati" and "portato" are both correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ckyle8

Wait, I'm confused. What is the difference between portati and portate? I just saw both used for the exact same sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/leonardicus

Portati indicates a group of boys, men or mixed group. Portate is exclusively female.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ckyle8

Oh, so it's like the difference between ragazze and ragazzi. Okay, thanks.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jamesjiao

Interesting.. "He has taken us to the zoo" and "He carried us to the zoo" are both accepted answers... but not "He has carried us to the zoo". A bit of an oversight by the course coordinators. Reported anyway.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

and lo and behold this group has some men in and the last were all women


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marie_Mir

how do I know it's about "us" and not "them" - i've translated this as "He's taken them to the zoo" and the owl said it's wrong... and I can't figure it out... please help


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

direct object pronoun ci=us li or le =them


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marie_Mir

thanks a million, confusedbeetle :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnthonyRen

When do you use 'portati' as opposed to 'preso'?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

not sure really but portare feels like bringing and prendere feels like taking to me


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/peejob

Ci ha portati suggests it is a group of men speaking...it is a woman's voice in the dictation. Am I thinking incorrectly about this ??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

peejob you are thinking correctly that a group of men would be portati, but, if there is a mixed group of both men and women then the men take precedence and it is also portati. So it can be a female talking about a mixed group


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paolo_Pen

Why is he took us to the zoo incorrect?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CinziaL52

I said, "He had taken us to the zoo," and DL marked it wrong indicating it is, "He has taken us to the zoo.". What's wrong with " He HAD taken us..."?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CinziaL52

What's wrong with, "He had taken us...," instead of "He has taken us..." ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

CinziaL52: It's the wrong tense. "Had taken..." would be "aveva portati", not "ha portati".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CinziaL52

Germanlehrerlsu: Grazie. Si, ho dimenticato. Ringrazio per il tuo risposto. Hope my Italiano is correct here. :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wxfrog
  • 1553

How can we tell "ci" means "us" and not "them"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

wxfrog: b/c ci as a pronoun means 'us' in this context; them would be 'le' or 'li'.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

Them would be Li or le I think


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnnabelleW607537

Our Italian teacher is Sicilian, who told us that in present perfect avere is used, than the verb does not changed either with the gender or when it's plural. He said it would be wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

This is true BUT when a personal pronoun comes into the mix the past participle has to agree with it. Even when using avere


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Judita218397

Keep it simple hey?!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AndreaColl738835

The English translation of this sentence is He brought us to the zoo. Not this nonsense that no one ever says. I think they have really botched this tense.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dick403354

Twice today DL has given me exactly the same question twice in a row. I was correct each time.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kate3010

Also, why is it written 'he took us to the zoo' for us to translate when the whole lesson is supposed to be present perfect and should say 'he has taken us to the zoo'? DL does this a lot the other way round as well.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

This depends whether you are thinking in us grammar terms or uk. The american present perfect relates to uk simple past, or oerfect tense. Passato prossimo.He took us. Then you go further back in time to past perfect and pluperfect. Thinking in English grammatical terms therefore, can be very confusing. Eg the use of the Imperfetto in Italian does not readily convert to English use. We use a gerund, continuous also differently. For this reason I have decided to only think in Italian grammar terms. Now I am a little less confused


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrettThoma3501

Can this sentence be restructured without the reflexive, or would that sound strange to natives?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Stefan_Hey

there is no reflexive in this sentence "ci" means "us" (NOT "ourselves")


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrettThoma3501

Ah yes, I was mistaken. I think what I meant to ask was:

Why "ci" and not "noi"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Stefan_Hey

"noi" is "we" "ci" is us it does not sound right: "He has taken WE to the ZOO"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrettThoma3501

This does not seem to always be the case. Specifically, in a previous exercise, Duo provided this example:

"Tu ti unisti a noi."

And the following translation:

"You joined us"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Stefan_Hey

No, you are getting confused by "Direct Objects Pronouns" (study them well before you do those exercises) In this case it is a different "NOI" and it really means "us". Check the table: 1st person singular (me) - me 2nd person singular (you) - te 3rd person singular (him, her, formal you) - Lui, lei, Lei 1st person plural (us) - noi 2nd person plural (you) - voi 3rd person plural (them) - loro


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrettThoma3501

Thank you for that clarification. Duolingo had not mentioned that there were separate forms!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Stefan_Hey

They did in the tips for Clitic Pronouns, here is a link: https://www.duolingo.com/skill/it/Clitic-Pronouns-1/tips-and-notes


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrettThoma3501

Thank you for that link as well! The mobile app's tip section did not include any of those helpful hints or tables.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Stefan_Hey

I did not know that As I've been home since mid March I've doing it on a computer


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertWill713455

he is pronouncing zoo as "DRO"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NicolsNani

This is the third time I get this sentence in the same lesson. How does this work?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Stefan_Hey

You know, learning by repetition is a great way when it comes to languages


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/littlemissk_s

This is ridiculous, i keep seeing this same sentence - i get it right each time and yet it keeps reappearing - duolingo i am not learning anything new! Can you just fix this?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SunnyWebb

i feel like this section should be called CLITICS II AND PRESENT PERFECT


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Williamssi61905

Just when you begin to think you finally get it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/piamgo

Could somebody pls explain, why it can't be “SHE“ who's taking us to the zoo? Thank you!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

piamgo: The subject 'lui' can only mean 'he'. "She" would be 'lei'.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bjojoe

DL! What's wrong with: "he has carried us to the zoo"??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

bjojoe: It's just not the most logical way to translate 'portare' in this context. I'd never say for example "I carried my children to the zoo yesterday." Or "Oh, let's carry the children to the zoo this weekend!" It's just not the most logical translation. I mean given DL's sentence you'd have to wonder: "So exactly how strong is he? One child on each arm? Two on his back, & one on each leg?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

But the italians do use portare in this context


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

confusedbeetle: Of course they do, I agree with you. But English speakers don't translate 'portare' as to "carry" in a context like this. In another context, 'carry' might very well translate "portare' best, but not in the context of a trip to the zoo -- or I'd guess any other destination. We "take" people places, we don't "carry" them there unless e.g. it's an accident scene, battlefield scenario where victims would quite logically be "carried" somewhere for treatment.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

Portate would indicate that we were a group of all females Males or a mixed group is portati


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rob864970

Confused here .. why isn't it portato to agree with zoo (or is zoo neutral?)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

rabskiart: The past participle doesn't agree with 'zoo' but with the direct object pronoun us/ci. Being plural the ending is 'i'. Note: FidoGracie's comment beloe is absolutely incorrect.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Christoph908681

I'm sorry DL but I definitely heard the voice say 'portate' and not 'portati'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Christoph: DL to Christoph: You say portate, I say portati...let's call the whole thing off. :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lisa_Kay_

Totally confused because here: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/220137 Duolingo uses "portate." I'll post on that place, too, and reference this link.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Lisa...it'd only be portate if the reference (ci) were to a group of females, the -e ending indicating that. An -i ending, portati, means the reference group (ci) is either all male or a mixed group of males and females. The participle has to agree with the pronoun object, in this case is 'ci'. But as I say, 'us" can be a group of all males > portati or a mixed group of males and females > also portati. The only way it'd be portate would be if the group were comprised of all females.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lisa_Kay_

Okay. But did you look at both links? Duolingo translates BOTH to the same thing. Here... I'll copy & paste from both pages.

https://www.duolingo.com/comment/98910 "Lui ci ha portati allo zoo. " Translation: He has taken us to the zoo.

And https://www.duolingo.com/comment/220137 "He has taken us to the zoo." Translation: Lui ci ha portate allo zoo.

Am I losing my mind?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Lisa Of course the translations are the same! The reason is that 'ci' can refer to any group of people & so out of context it's impossible to say who makes up that group, gender wise, UNLESS there's a marker. Is the group made up of all men, all women, or a mixed group. That's exactly what the past participle endings will tell us, but the sentences translate exactly the same since it's "us" in both instances and unlike Italian, English has NO way of indicating the makeup of that group. It's simply "US". In Italian, the past participle carries a marker, indicative of gender. If the past participle is portatE then "us" refers to a group of girls or women; if the past particple is portatI, then the group is either made up of all boys/men or a mixed group of men and women/boys and girls. So again, both sentences translate the same into English because we have NO way to indicate who makes up that group of 'us'. Italian DOES, namely by agreement between the past participle and the direct object pronoun (ci).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lisa_Kay_

Thank you so much for your reply. Okay. I get it. However, half the time I get this wrong when Duolingo asks me to translate "He has taken us to the zoo." How in the world would I know which one they want?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Lisa, you can't know if the sentence is out of context. My experience is that Duo would accept either portati or portate for the sentence in question. There's no way they could or should do otherwise since it could be either.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lisa_Kay_

Oh, look at that. Now it lets me hit "reply." Hmmm.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lisa_Kay_

I have no "reply" to click on for your last comment, below, but wanted to let you know that, yes, Duolingo has marked me wrong. sigh No way to click on "notify" Duolingo, either.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Lisa, I see from your post above this one that you've had some success in wearing them down! Way to go! Whether accepted by them or not, be assured your answer is correct and that's what's important.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FidoGracie

"ci ha portato", not "ci ha portati". Verbs using avere as their auxiliary verb in the present perfect always use the participle ending in "o" regardless of gender or number---- unless they are made reflexive (and switching to essere as the auxiliary), which is not the case here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

I believe that when you have a pronoun added to the mix, that the past participle has to agree whether or not the auxiliary verb is avere


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Past participles w/ avere agree with direct object pronouns.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

Sorry I am a bit confused again, germanlehrerlsu, is your reply to me or Fido gracie? you and I seem to be saying the same thing


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

It was to Fido gracie. Sorry for any confusion. Yes, you and I on on the same page.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CinziaL52

I'm taking an Italian class with native Italian teachers, and the textbook states that the past participle always ends in "o" when using avere, but in verbs using essere the past participle must agree in number and gender, "-o/-a/-i/-e.".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

CinziaL52: Not so! Please read the various explanations above for past participal agreement even in verbs requiring 'avere' when there's a direct object pronoun involved. The rules are very clear in this regard. Hai comprato la casa? Si, l'ho comprata. Note the following examples off the web:

Hanno visitato il nonno. (They have visited their grandfather.) BUT: Lo hanno visitato. (They have visited him. Also: L'hanno visitato.)

Ho comprato i pantaloni. (I have bought the pants.) BUT: Li ho comprati. (I have bought them.)

Abbiamo veduto Teresa. (We have seen Theresa.) BUT: L'abbiamo veduta. (We have seen her.)

If you've got native Italian teachers in your class, you should ask them about this. Possibly they didn't go into this "exception" in detail so as to not 'muddy the waters' so to speak.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/stiofanin

Thank you for this explanation Germanlehrerlsu, it's really useful.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Noell52

Germanlehrerlsu, you are so right. I forgot this rule. Thank you!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

No problem. Everybody forgets, sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes not. Ciao.

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